What makes Naza 'better' than Multiwii

Cralis · Post by **Cralis** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:36 am

Yes, topic is subjective, but what makes people spend $450 for a NAZA, instead of $90 for a Multiwii (both with GPS)?

Same quality components, no?

So, does it come down to software?
It's the only thing I can think of. Naza is easier to setup... Away with the PID stuff, it seems... just simpler and easier to get a wobble free-er, RTH, Latitude hold etc. Multiwii is more tricky. I have a Multiwii, and battling to get it stable, and haven't yet got alt and pos hold working... and it's a bit wobbly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz84I-Dhhyk

It's wobbling a lot, and I am battling to get it 'locked in'. But why do people find NAZA easier and have more success? Can't the same software (config) features be built into Multiwii?

Just trying to see why Naza is (perceived? to be) better.

Cralis · Post by **Cralis** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:43 am

Also, something I thought might be a good idea, for the awesome developers of the code for this board - Would an 'Auto Gain' setting not be an idea? The board could detect a wobble, from, say, too high a gain setting (P value?). Could it not automatically drop the gain until the wobble goes?

ReadError · Post by **ReadError** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:45 am

Simple, they are idiots.

Cralis · Post by **Cralis** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:48 am

That may be the reason, but it does seem people have more quicker success with the Naza. It just seems that it is easier to get your multi flying like you want - quicker. I think it comes own to the manual PID settings... which are tricky, and vague for us noobs... enough for me to scan ebay for a cheap Naza.. but I want to stay with Multiwii, as I think it can be great... But, I also want to fly... instead of tinker..

timecop · Post by **timecop** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:56 am

Quicker success?
If your goal is hover in front of your nose, then sure $540 on naza is a great investment.
If you plan to actually fly, then maybe it isn't.
I have yet to see a single naza video that wasn't wobbling, yet all multiwii stuff I ever tried is wobble-free out of the box.
and then there's the part about flying in winds, rapid descents, etc. where naza can't even touch multiwii (or shit, even kk board)

ReadError · Post by **ReadError** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:00 am

Lets see someone do something besides some lame wobbly FPV or hovering with a Naza, this separates the bros from the pros.

Cralis · Post by **Cralis** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:11 am

No, invalid.. that's a poor reply.. I'm trying to be constructive...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PpcQ0mOM4w
Totally invalidated your answers... Naza can do good things... and more than often, does.

I'm sure the Multiwii can do the same, hence why I want to stick with it .... but it's common knowledge that it's easier to get right.

ReadError · Post by **ReadError** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:16 am

So easier is better?

Cralis · Post by **Cralis** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:22 am

Hang on ... you asked "Lets see someone do something besides some lame wobbly FPV or hovering with a Naza". I think I achieved that. Now you're asking something else. Is easier better? Yes, if it achieves the same goal.... and that video shows the Naza is capable. So, back to the topic. I'm not here to bash Naza.. I'm here to find out why people pay so much more. It seems to be software setup .... and is that ease (Yes, ease is a good thing) doable with Multiwii?

ReadError · Post by **ReadError** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:26 am

Lets see a Naza going beast mode like warthox.

fiendie · Post by **fiendie** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:30 am

Cralis wrote:I'm here to find out why people pay so much more.

Marketing and snobbery.

crashlander · Post by **crashlander** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:45 am

If you like to stay cheap and don't mind to learn something on the way you will take MWII.
If you really like to use simple "BLACK BOX" technology (not be bothered by too much knowledge) and have plenty of money you will go DJI! And many go down that route.

But in the end if you like perfect results you will sill have to understand (and tweak) a lot of things, even with DJI.

Regards
Andrej

BTW: Must confess that PH in wind was much better with DJI (at least last summer).

timecop · Post by **timecop** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:48 am

Cralis wrote:No, invalid.. that's a poor reply.. I'm trying to be constructive...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PpcQ0mOM4w
Totally invalidated your answers... Naza can do good things... and more than often, does.

I'm sure the Multiwii can do the same, hence why I want to stick with it .... but it's common knowledge that it's easier to get right.

o'rly?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPcZegRqyVg

Cralis · Post by **Cralis** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:47 pm

Not sure of your point. What's the question? I haven't said the multiwii is not capable. I'm asking why the Naza is perceived to be better, and people pay close to 5 times the price. My guess is still the complication, the PID settings ... And the increased success rate early on of the Naza. The PID settings are the hardest bit.... I personally battle, as do most people on the forums I frequent.

nicog · Post by **nicog** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:52 pm

I had a naza... guess what, sold it for cheap because i could not make it work as i want it. I tried to use it for aerial filming... Let me say, it's not good. Maybe because i spend some time on flying and not just hovering. Now i fly with a multiwii related stuff, very complicated pid settings, just default. Images are great.

timecop · Post by **timecop** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:03 pm

Cralis wrote:Not sure of your point. What's the question? I haven't said the multiwii is not capable. I'm asking why the Naza is perceived to be better, and people pay close to 5 times the price. My guess is still the complication, the PID settings ... And the increased success rate early on of the Naza. The PID settings are the hardest bit.... I personally battle, as do most people on the forums I frequent.

You want the answer?
Because the retards who ARE willing to drop 5x more for Naza have never done anything RC and have a $10,000 wedding shoot next week that they MUST complete with a Red Epic hanging under a F550. Thats why.

flyrobot · Post by **flyrobot** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:47 pm

Its simply answer, choose naza if you dont want learn more about multirotor. Just want to simply "plug and fly toy" hover.
With Multiwii beside its using cheap hardware (thanks to alex and all contributor programmer team), its very stable hover and i never change the stock PID setting in any frame. Its the most exciting multirotor project.

With WKM (naza brother), i almost always change the PID setting for just alt hold. So i really dont aggree with the title of this thread. You should change it in opposite "what makes multiwii "much better" than naza even WKM (even for my pocket)

John

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:05 pm

Not having owned one myself but based upon the many videos I have seen of the NAZA, I think Gullibility is a major factor here with the NAZA. The NAZA is marketed well.

fiendie · Post by **fiendie** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:24 pm

copterrichie wrote:Not having owned one myself but based upon the many videos I have seen of the NAZA, I think Gullibility is a major factor here with the NAZA. The NAZA is marketed well.

On second thought, I find their marketing incredibly cheesy.
It probably has more to do with "paid reviews"

Federico · Post by **Federico** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:11 pm

We all are very proud of our multiwii boards but I have seen many naza here in italy and I think that my multiwii, for example, after days and days of setup still doesn't have the baro stability and the gps stability of the naza. And the naza has better stability under those aspects in one hour i think.
Also, in my forum "baronerosso.it" many users are switcing from multiwii to arducopter, because of the advanced automatic functions.
Looks like lately multiwii is less appealing?

jef79m · Post by **jef79m** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:49 pm

Well, multiwii has never really been "appealing", just free. And runs ( to whatever extent) on tons of hardware that's cheap and readily available, and not manufactured by a douche.

Federico · Post by **Federico** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:27 pm

I think that this thread could be more interesting talking about "performance differencies", if any...
If we talk about opensource, hardware possibilities and modifications multiwii wins under every aspect.

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:37 pm

The way I see it, people that are looking for plug and play simplicity, really should not be in this hobby. They should look to a professional service for their needs.

fiendie · Post by **fiendie** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:44 pm

Federico wrote:I think that this thread could be more interesting talking about "performance differencies", if any...
If we talk about opensource, hardware possibilities and modifications multiwii wins under every aspect.

That thread was supposed to be a flamefest from the outset.

If I come to your place and ask "What makes you such an arsehole? Discuss!" the conversation is in the shitter before
it started.

It's great that you have so many users who enjoy watching their multirotor hover in one place or fly from poing A to point B at an agonizingly slow pace.
For people who actually like to fly their models MultiWii is still the first choice.

So it's probably best to keep those discussions in your forum instead of trying to rain on everyone's parade here.

jef79m · Post by **jef79m** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:45 pm

copterrichie wrote:The way I see it, people that are looking for plug and play simplicity, really should not be in this hobby. They should look to a professional service for their needs.

Which many people perceive dji to be.

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:48 pm

jef79m wrote:
Which many people perceive dji to be.

Key word: Perceive, aka Gullible.

shikra · Post by **shikra** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:01 am

I'm a huge multiwii fan and would say the list of features and performance beats Naza functionality in most respects, however it's not for everyone.
Naza is more plug and play. Its easier no doubt. Not everyone is technically mind.
Only reason to,buy a naza is if you don't want to take time to learn or you think you need the better alt hold or GPS functionality Naza has.
A well set up copter with Naza can provide some awesome results too.

Only reason I would buy a Naza is for AP,work where you need good GPS hold whilst operating a camera.

Federico · Post by **Federico** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:05 am

Looks like that every time someone tries to discuss about something that is not completely in line with multiwii forum it's considered a troll.
I specified that I fly multiwii every week, and that I love it.
I was already asking myself ( and now to the forum too as i found this thread) why many people are switching from multiwii to other opensource platform, for example. Or if closed platforms have something that work better compared to multiwii.
I am wondering if it could be possible for multiwii to have more automatic functions or to be simpler while mantaining his heart.

I actually like to -fly- my models and I was tring to be constructive, but looks like it's easier not to discuss things.

Cralis · Post by **Cralis** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:59 am

Yeah, the response on here isn't what I expected. Saying that this is just an attempt to cause a "flamefest" is a bit disappointing. I have a Mutiwii, and am battling to get it stable. I see most Naza guys get it right straight away, and aren't doing AP. They're flying - hard! Saying "If you don't want to tinker and learn, then this hobby isn't for you" is crazy! I want to fly... How I achieve that is my problem. If I want a quick easy road to success ... why shouldn't I be in the hobby? Crazy crazy arguments. I have been trying to get a stable quad for a few months, and although I'm progressing... asking questions and working at it ... I see a lot of people in the same boat with their Multiwiis, but see a lot of Naza guys flying really well. I'm not convinced it's marketing... I think it's something in the software that somehow automates the setup... and my entire point is - why can't Multiwii 'copy' that idea?

I guess it's like Windows vs Linux... Linux guys hate Windows... because they lose control... and Windows guys don't move to Linux, because it's less user friendly. However, just because I prefer Windows, doesn't mean I shouldn't be a team lead on software development projects....

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:18 am

There is something on the internet these days as called PAID bloggers and that is being nice. :mrgreen:

jef79m · Post by **jef79m** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:36 am

Cralis wrote:Yeah, the response on here isn't what I expected. Saying that this is just an attempt to cause a "flamefest" is a bit disappointing. I have a Mutiwii, and am battling to get it stable. I see most Naza guys get it right straight away, and aren't doing AP. They're flying - hard! Saying "If you don't want to tinker and learn, then this hobby isn't for you" is crazy! I want to fly... How I achieve that is my problem. If I want a quick easy road to success ... why shouldn't I be in the hobby? Crazy crazy arguments. I have been trying to get a stable quad for a few months, and although I'm progressing... asking questions and working at it ... I see a lot of people in the same boat with their Multiwiis, but see a lot of Naza guys flying really well. I'm not convinced it's marketing... I think it's something in the software that somehow automates the setup... and my entire point is - why can't Multiwii 'copy' that idea?

I guess it's like Windows vs Linux... Linux guys hate Windows... because they lose control... and Windows guys don't move to Linux, because it's less user friendly. However, just because I prefer Windows, doesn't mean I shouldn't be a team lead on software development projects....

So letme read between the lines here...

- You've played around for four months and haven't got multiwii going like a naza yet.
- You want multiwii to copy naza functionality
- You want a quick and easy road to success, but when told "if you dont want to tinker, multiwii isnt for you" you... and i've lost my train of thought...

poeple arent going to make it naza easy for you for free. If you want Naza features, go buy one.

Cralis · Post by **Cralis** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:13 am

Well, jef, you're half right, but maybe you nailed it with the statement, "poeple arent going to make it naza easy for you for free. If you want Naza features, go buy one."

I'll now read between the lines.
- It IS the software that makes the difference
- People who battle with Multiwii, and see Naza guys doing well, should go "go buy one". To hell with these noobs?

That's fair enough. Highly short sighted, and hopefully not the view of the good guys who develop the multiwii, but a fair enough comment. It was mentioned that marketing had a lot to do with Naza being able to sell for 5 times the price. With statements like, "If you want Naza features, go buy one."... I can certainly agree with the marketing angle then. That's not a wise way to make Multiwii more popular. But it's your comment, and it's fair enough.

Your reading was a bit wrong... I never once said " multiwii to copy naza functionality ". I said, they could copy something that makes it easier to setup. The functionality,a s far as I know is equal to, or better than the Naza. So no, I do not think multiwii should copy naza functionality.

And yes, if there is an easier route to success .... I still don't see why one wouldn't take it. It comes down to cost.... I can't justify 5x the cost. All I have been asking is why Naza is 5x the cost, and why people buy it. I think you answered it though... According to you, people won't make it easy for free... so live with it.

Fair enough, but ... yeah... that seems short sighted if you want your platform to progress to the masses. I write software for another device, a popular OSD, and don't charge. The software makes the setup easier, and is very popular. Free. A flight controller board is out of my league, in case you hit me with, "Then write something for Multiwii!".

Honestly, this thread was hoping to get constructive reasoning as to why a Multiwii can't be easier to configure, at a fraction of the cost of the Naza.... I don't think it would be too hard. I mean, they charge $190 for a GPS module, which maybe costs.. what .. $12 to make? If Multiwii was easier to configure for the general people (Not the amazing smart guys like you, who get it right much quicker), then surely, it would kill Naza?

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:28 am

Why is this discussion in this forum? Seems to me, if it has a place on this site, that place would be General Discussion: viewforum.php?f=16

Truthfully, this appears to be the same crap conducted on RCG by Paid Trolls.

Cralis · Post by **Cralis** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:08 am

I think it might be the right forum... it looks like it comes down to Software?
And enough with the trolling accusations. I'm not a troll, nor am I bashing the multiwii....
Also, this thread is decaying into something it shouldn't. So, sorry if it's ruffling feathers. It wasn't meant to. I was just hoping to spark something to make the Multiwii more userfriendly, to knock down the Naza off it's pirtch. It seems to be down to the PID settings... but maybe it's a deeper thing... It sound like some people LIKE complexity... As a 'normal' user, I'd like to get more success quicker.

scrat · Post by **scrat** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:10 am

I bought Crius AIO Pro at the end of last year. When board was on it's way I have read this forum and RCG. Saw some youtube videos about mwii. My quad was flying after 2 hours like a charm. It's not that hard to set MWii.

felixrising · Post by **felixrising** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:22 am

What makes it "better"? Control over the hardware. Software is a small factor in this.

Having so much choice in hardware makes software setup more complex. There are things that can be done to introduce a more consistent out of box experience (HAL), but at the end of the day, if I set up the hardware and configure it for you, you'll find less variables need to be changed when it comes to installing it on your multi-rotor platform. DJI even makes their own multi-rotor platforms so they make out of box experience even easier. So if you ask me for a FC + GPS + Platform, I can give you a very easy to tweak experience - even easier because under MultiWii you have Bluetooth options so you can tweak settings from your phone, whilst in the air. Some kind of PID auto tune could likely be introduced based on the Arduino library of the same name, but that needs a larger MCU and MultiWii's strength and weakness currently lies in its support of the legacy hardware such as ATmega128/328 boards from whence it first gained popularity and still holds a lot of popularity. Given a more modern and powerful MCU you can implement a lot more features, but maintaining backwards compatibility becomes difficult, something that has been discussed here a lot on how to proceed with regards to this. I think a lot more work needs to go into the wiki and some code validation and autobuild features that generate hardware guides showing what modular feature sets will and won't work (program memory or processor speed dependencies) on each platform would be a great place to start.

Cralis · Post by **Cralis** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:32 am

THANK YOU felixrising. That actually makes sense, and I see the issues. Kind of like android targeting hundreds of platforms, and iPhone having one. Thanks man.

rotary65 · Post by **rotary65** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:04 am

Cralis, I have followed your build thread on RCG, so I know you're being sincere. However, it's awkward to compare a commercial product with an open source project on the open source forum. It's a difference of values.

MW is about the experience of making it work and fly. DJI is about money - the flying is the means to profit. As a MW user, it's important to understand that MW is a collaborative effort of a bunch of people in it for the experience.

There is hype and there is reality. Reality is best discovered through experience. Experience can't be bought, it must be earned. You don't get mastery out of anything out of the box. There are certainly great examples of mastery on all FCs, but none of it came out of the box and none of it came easily.

You have been trying to get MWC working well and have found it to be difficult. If you are curious about Naza claims, then you should get one and try it for yourself. It's just money. Buy one, try it and gain understanding.

felixrising · Post by **felixrising** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:42 am

Totally agree with Rotary65.
For me, this is about the learning experience, it's just fantastic being able to dig deeper and deeper into this great OSS project, and also have the joy of flying it knowing what's going on in the background. For me, the tweaking and at times complexity is part of the experience. I think the important thing to remember about OSS is that it's there for you to collaborate with, to contribute and give back to the community what you take. If you've made some great insightful experiences and want to share, then update the wiki, post a build log, help another user and if you can code, help improve the code. There are heaps of things that need doing and waiting for someone passionate to come along and pick up and do. For the record, doing some navel gazing and comparing this project in a unbiased way to other products and ideas is a good thing, it helps give this project more identity, helps define more what it is and what it's not. Now, I should say, I'm pretty new here and I don't really know the code or the history that well. But I am passionate about OSS and I like the way this project seems to move along without the politics that I've seen on some other projects.

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:26 pm

If this is a real question and not some marketing tactic, then in my opinion, far too many people believe software can perform magic. They will use crapping hardware and believe the software can make it work or they believe software can make up for the lack of piloting skills, this is just not true. The truth is, it is the union of software, hardware, building and piloting skills that equal success. The MWC offers a learning experience and personal growth where as the NAZA (IMO) is seeking to profit from people's desire to imitate what they see others do without investing the time or effort to learn.

subaru4wd · Post by **subaru4wd** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:08 pm

You asked...

here's your answer:

DJI - Large Corporation with paid engineers.

MultiWii - an online Open Source community.

Deet · Post by **Deet** » Wed May 01, 2013 12:33 am

I have set up 20+ airframes with MW based controllers

I have flown Naza, KK, HK, FF, Durafly, Gaui and MW, boards

Of all of them the MW boards produced the best "out of the box results" typically with default PIDs

The only thing the Naza does well is hover. Its GPS and Alt Hold is unbelievably good, but as soon as you get into any extended forward flight you soon get to see its shortcomings.

So DJI market there product based on how well it hovers. Which BTW is all the "engineers" at DJI do. They do all there testing in the carpark.

If you are havingf suchs erious set up issues with your airframe then I suggest its the airframe, not the MW board

Cralis · Post by **Cralis** » Wed May 01, 2013 1:24 am

Yeah, it's highly possible it's not my Multiwii board...
It's not the frame it's self, as others have amazing flight (using Naza and Multiwii). It's down to my lack of understanding of the PID settings, I believe, which is the area I was hoping could be improved as far as config goes. Also, I have had zero luck with alt and pos hold... again, maybe an understanding issue. A lot of people seem to say that default settings worked for them... so, I might somehow get the defaults... and see how she flies.

It may be an under powered craft though?
Maybe a poor motor/esc/prop/battery selection?

My motors on my Quad at 770kv, running 4S 4000mah pack... abd 10" props...
Maybe the 770kv is a bit low..
If I recall, my weight, with battery and video tx and camera (Without go pro) was around 1.2kgs...

Maybe the wobble is down to .. just not enough power?

Although, something that I feel IS the board, is .. when I engage heading hold - it's turns, and keeps turning to one side. I'd have expected it to lock, like a heading hold gyro (Maybe a GY401?) on a helicopter?

crashlander · Post by **crashlander** » Wed May 01, 2013 9:15 am

In my case I must confess that I'm also the one doing almost NO pid tuning (no mater quad X, quad +, Y6, flying wing).
The only thing I change is RC expo (from 0.65 to 0.45) and on multy copters (where I use reflashed ESC) set P to double the default (use to be from 4 to 8 and now to 7).
The rest of settings I change are only for my acro multy's (to make it less stable and numb).

So those that must do a lot of PID tuning on MWII should probably redo/recheck the rest of HW (I also know people that are unable to set up their Naza until they change props, ESC, motors...).

Regards
Andrej

Hamburger · Post by **Hamburger** » Wed May 01, 2013 3:15 pm

+1
(Apart from using MWii for helicopters where vibration and geometry are quite different beasts to deal with).
From a developer's point of view it would be intersting to hear more about differences in experience wrt
- tuning ease
-flight stability like for fpv and ap
- features
- flight dynamics like doing warthox stuff
- other.

Last time I spent with plenty multikopter (c) owners they definitely classified for the proud hover type of owners - not pilots. Maybe kinda similar to naza owners. Different needs and desires from MWii pilots I happen to know.

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Wed May 01, 2013 3:32 pm

This question was asked in the Multiwii community and the response is very predicable or should have been expected. Ask this same question in a NAZA community and I am sure, the response there will differ.

timecop · Post by **timecop** » Wed May 01, 2013 3:48 pm

I haven't touchd PIDs on any multiwii stuff I fly.
Just like the dude above, all I do is increase rc-rate and bump up P for flashed ESC.
This free naza shit i smashed up a month ago was totally fucking unflyable.
I mean look at this shit -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPajWOHMLMg
This is naza, on their frame, their esc, their motors, etc.
As a "reference platform" one would expect I dont need to adjust ANYTHING on it.
Yet it totally sucks, almost falls over during yaw, feels like shit in manual, wobbles horribly on descent etc.

Ask this same question in a NAZA community and I am sure, the response there will differ.

lol yeah, they'll be all like YOU JUST GOTTA TUNE UR GAINZ

Quad FRITZ · Post by **Quad FRITZ** » Wed May 01, 2013 5:25 pm

All my copters (Y6, X8, Quads) fly well with standard PID settings. I understand you concerns when it comes to changing PIDs for optimizing this or that characteristic but I would guess something else is wrong with your setup..
Did you try to use the low pass filtering?

alll · Post by **alll** » Wed May 01, 2013 6:07 pm

IMO each copter needs PID tuning, i never use the defaults. I agree that having the right frame proportions for a given motor/prop/esc is the 1st most important and most difficult to find!

manu

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Wed May 01, 2013 6:29 pm

alll wrote:IMO each copter needs PID tuning, i never use the defaults. I agree that having the right frame proportions for a given motor/prop/esc is the 1st most important and most difficult to find!
manu

Let me also jump upon this bandwagon, I have never used the default PID settings. Each copter in my opinion are unique and in my situation, special. LOL

To my own credit, I invested sometime in learning what the PID does and now I have a skill that will be with me until.