Chinese 'Rabbit' FC uses MultiWii code, no credit given

timecop · Post by **timecop** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:27 am

No credit, no source available. Last I checked MultiWii code was GPL.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost ... tcount=158

Discuss.

UndCon · Post by **UndCon** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:30 am

I also followed the Rabbit and I must say I am impressed by nice videos. To bad they do nothing about GPL and such...but hey , dealing with the Chinese copy-industry so what do you expect?

//UndCon

Hamburger · Post by **Hamburger** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:27 pm

UndCon wrote:I also followed the Rabbit and I must say I am impressed by nice videos.

UndCon, of course we expect MultiWii to fly nice. That has nothing to do with violating GPL.

To bad they do nothing about GPL and such...but hey , dealing with the Chinese copy-industry so what do you expect?

they live and learn? First step would be to inform them nicely they committed a GPL violation and how to remedy this. Alex would be the naturally most prominent person to do this.

If you follow gpl-violations.org, quite some asian manufacturers/suppliers have learnt to accept and follow GPL rules. Maybe not to their disadvantage.

Alex, want to contact them?

Alexinparis · Post by **Alexinparis** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:00 pm

Hi,

Apparently, this board has some features multiwii has not, for instance a better alt hold according to what I read

If multiwii source code is really used in this board, it's quite annoying because the delta and interesting code is closed for the multiwii community.

@Hamburger: I prefer to not take time to dig into gpl-violations things. It would be another time consuming domain, and I've not a lot of time currently

... Feel free to initiate the communication

But anyway, I think the first aim here in multiwii is not to protect a business, but rather to share innovation and new features.

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:30 pm

Well spoken words Alex!

I believe it is their lost not supporting the open source concept. After the initial excitement, people will back away.

Hamburger · Post by **Hamburger** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:40 pm

Alexinparis wrote:...If multiwii source code is really used in this board, it's quite annoying because the delta and interesting code is closed for the multiwii community.

...

But anyway, I think the first aim here in multiwii is ... to share innovation and new features.

I agree completely. Also, they (?) have successfully ported to 32 bit ARM. I would like to get that as well.

From what I understand about GPL, as a developer I am entitled to talk to them. So I will write them nicely.

timecop · Post by **timecop** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:44 pm

They use MMA8452Q accel, which is currently the best quality digital accel available. That would explain auto-level stability.
As far as I know sonar altitude hold is the only thing that was demonstrated as being "better", and that one is easy to do on a proper micro with enough PWM inputs.

Motor mixer is definitely 100% multiwii, down to using same macros etc, and a lot of other things like reading/saving settings, main loop, uart organization, etc seems to follow multiwii code patterns.

ITG3200 data reading is identical, including /4 division as in multiwii code.
I'm too lazy to map out the floating point functions used, I only guessed fp_divide by luck while checking out mixer, but it would make sense for main loop/etc code to more or less follow multiwii (I saw same numeric constants etc) minus 8bit-isms like checking variable size before doing mathops.

Anyway, it does suck they wasted the time to port it to a 32bit architecture and closed the sores.

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:50 pm

Personally, I believe it may be more of a language barrier/problem than trying to keep their development a secret. Given the fact, this is Chinese New Year would explain the lack of information at this moment. However I don't understand the rubbing out the Chip information. Hmmm.

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:51 pm

P.S. GREAT Detective work there Dongs.

Hamburger · Post by **Hamburger** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:05 pm

Hi dongs,
I'd say you found strong evidence.Event hough at this point, nobody I know really wants to make a case and go the hard legal route. Either way, we would benefit the most if they played along and released their 32 bit arm port. From what I read learnt from gpl-violations.org, most times the 'violators' are just plain not aware of the obligations that come with using GPL code and in some cases it may well be only developers knew that GPL code was used to begin with.

I wrote to goodluckbuy and the ebay seller (in as nicely terms as I could come up with). Are there any other known dealers, preferrably in the western hemisphere? I ask for two things (if MultiWii code relation is true) in accordance with GPL:
- state relation to MultiWii in product description
- provide access to the source code
Let's see how it goes.

Alexinparis · Post by **Alexinparis** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:06 pm

So, I think there are no possible doubts now.

If they took time to port it to a 32 bit proc (like you http://code.google.com/p/afrodevices/), I think we can expect some evolution in the future (maybe a 'Dragon' FC after the 'Rabbit' one

)

I agree about sonar, it's not the most difficult part.

dongs wrote:They use MMA8452Q accel, which is currently the best quality digital accel available. That would explain auto-level stability.
As far as I know sonar altitude hold is the only thing that was demonstrated as being "better", and that one is easy to do on a proper micro with enough PWM inputs.

Motor mixer is definitely 100% multiwii, down to using same macros etc, and a lot of other things like reading/saving settings, main loop, uart organization, etc seems to follow multiwii code patterns.

ITG3200 data reading is identical, including /4 division as in multiwii code.
I'm too lazy to map out the floating point functions used, I only guessed fp_divide by luck while checking out mixer, but it would make sense for main loop/etc code to more or less follow multiwii (I saw same numeric constants etc) minus 8bit-isms like checking variable size before doing mathops.

Anyway, it does suck they wasted the time to port it to a 32bit architecture and closed the sores.

Hamburger · Post by **Hamburger** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:46 pm

I got a reply from the ebay seller (vocanlo). He basically says, if we order board from him, he will supply the source code.
Now I am not sure if he understands the difference between firmware and source code, but who knows?

Did any of you by chance order a rabbit board via ebay? At the moment it would be the easiest route to follow.

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:20 pm

Wow, not in retrospect, wish I had purchased my Rabbit off of Ebay however, I am hopeful GLB will supply the code once Chinese New Year is over.

freedom2000 · Post by **freedom2000** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:06 pm

dongs wrote:They use MMA8452Q accel, which is currently the best quality digital accel available. That would explain auto-level stability.
As far as I know sonar altitude hold is the only thing that was demonstrated as being "better", and that one is easy to do on a proper micro with enough PWM inputs.

Hi Dongs,

You mention that MMA8452Q is the best Acc available today.

Please could you confirm this compared to BMA180 ?

Thanks
JP

Hamburger · Post by **Hamburger** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:16 pm

Today I sent another note to both ebay seller and GLB.

Hello again,
You provide products under the name rabbit flight controller.
I am
a developer of the MultiWii system. We have come to believe (from
feature set and code analysis) that these products do use code from the
MultiWii system. The MultiWii code is developed and provided under GPL. So
you must also follow GPL rules (and benefit from that again; otherwise
customers will go away for sure)
- state that in your product
and
-
give access to the source code you have made.

This is not negotiable. We
intend to pursue this issue. I will definitely not buy this or any other
product from you unless you resolve this. You must follow the rules of
GPL.
Waiting for you answer,
Regards, Hamburger

as stated here http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost ... tcount=547
If they (?) continuej to refrain we may pursue different route
- not buy it; instead get alternate products with better policy
- take it to gpl-violations
- propose a public ban for this product on all known channels for presentation, discussion and trade

Alexinparis · Post by **Alexinparis** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:07 pm

We can see things with philosophy.
It's a good advertisement for multiwii software

Closing the source is probably anti productive for them in this context because they won't benefit as fast as the community from the overall software improvement.
Just an example: the nice GUI from EOSBandi

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:51 pm

Alexinparis wrote:We can see things with philosophy.
It's a good advertisement for multiwii software

Closing the source is probably anti productive for them in this context because they won't benefit as fast as the community from the overall software improvement.
Just an example: the nice GUI from EOSBandi

Amen, Amen and two more Amen!

Xor · Post by **Xor** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:26 pm

Hamburger wrote:I got a reply from the ebay seller (vocanlo). He basically says, if we order board from him, he will supply the source code.
Now I am not sure if he understands the difference between firmware and source code, but who knows?

Did any of you by chance order a rabbit board via ebay? At the moment it would be the easiest route to follow.

Oh, good I found this topic. Waiting for the order arrival from him.
Will request source code.

Hamburger · Post by **Hamburger** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:40 pm

Xor wrote:Oh, good I found this topic. Waiting for the order arrival from him.
Will request source code.

nice. Seems like you actually would be first to try this since I posted this possible approach. But I do not have much faith in rabbit dealers and producers. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I will post warning over at RCG to avoid rabbit alltogether and use better alternatives.

Xor · Post by **Xor** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:16 pm

Hamburger wrote:
Xor wrote:Oh, good I found this topic. Waiting for the order arrival from him.
Will request source code.

nice. Seems like you actually would be first to try this since I posted this possible approach. But I do not have much faith in rabbit dealers and producers. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I will post warning over at RCG to avoid rabbit alltogether and use better alternatives.

Well, that's what I've got in response immediately "vocanlo is out of the office until 03/07/2012 and may not be able to respond to your message."
So, let's wait.

In question for the alternatives, I'm new to the hobby and while researching options I've found that Rabbit is stable and novice friendly, only now (5 days after rabbit purchase) I discovered that they are using GPL licensed code violating license terms. Too bad I already invested money, btw I'm involved in the opensource dev as well.

Xor · Post by **Xor** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:40 pm

Hamburger wrote:
Xor wrote:Oh, good I found this topic. Waiting for the order arrival from him.
Will request source code.

nice. Seems like you actually would be first to try this since I posted this possible approach. But I do not have much faith in rabbit dealers and producers. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I will post warning over at RCG to avoid rabbit alltogether and use better alternatives.

Got the response, he have no idea what the source code means. Also, he didn't even bother to re-upload and hide the source of fc.

Hi,please check this:
http://www.goodluckbuy.com/images/detai ... manual.pdf
and
http://www.goodluckbuy.com/upload/uploa ... Driver.EXE
thank you.

Hamburger · Post by **Hamburger** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:53 am

just posted a warning over at RCG: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1610439
now waiting for the storm to come.

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:26 am

I find it oh so very interesting how some people only view this issue based upon how much money they paid for th item verse the principle of Intellectual property. There is little doubt in my mind as to why the world is on the eve of financial collapses, everyone is only thinking about themselves and what they can get for nothing or near nothing..

Tifani · Post by **Tifani** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:56 am

+100
Tom

Hamburger · Post by **Hamburger** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:47 am

If nothing else it teaches you about some 'fellow' hobbyists. Sorry to say no big surprises here.

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:05 pm

Yes, there are opportunist everywhere in life and we can expect no less from the people involved in this hobby. It is an age old argument of socialism verse Capitalism.

Xor · Post by **Xor** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:07 am

I replied there as well, it's so funny and sad, I'm software dev involved in open source, I moved to US from Belarus (exUSSR republic) and in exUSSR pirated software is everywhere and I was thinking the in US people are different and it clearly shows that a lot of people obeying the law only because they are forced to.

Do I understand correctly that by GPLv3 they lost the rights to the software by violating the license (but can get rights back, but I do not think they will bother). So it is fully lawful to disassemble their code and re-implement it in the MultiWii (sonar code for example)?

timecop · Post by **timecop** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:00 am

The sonar code is from multiwii anyway.
Not like you have to get it back.

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:06 pm

What I find amazing interesting (I like watching and studying behaviors) is the supporters of the Rabbit sites other bad behavior, this is how it has been for eons, I can spend my money where I want, yadda, yadda yadda. No one is presenting a valid argument as to why complying to the GPL does not benefit everyone. Amazing and very fun to watch.

Hamburger · Post by **Hamburger** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:37 pm

I must say it is not pure fun all the time when I find myself at the center of the pourout of all this venom. Old proverbial says 'always bash the bearer of bad news'. Probably that is as close as you can get to closing your eyes and wish for what you do not want to see will then magically go away. We know children do that. Now we know being over 18 does not stop that for some people.

Williwaw · Post by **Williwaw** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:00 pm

^^ Or that no good dead go unpunished.

I too find it amazing how some people can not see the simple request in adhering into the GNU.

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:08 pm

Hamburger wrote:I must say it is not pure fun all the time when I find myself at the center of the pourout of all this venom. Old proverbial says 'always bash the bearer of bad news'. Probably that is as close as you can get to closing your eyes and wish for what you do not want to see will then magically go away. We know children do that. Now we know being over 18 does not stop that for some people.

I have been in your shoes Hamburger, don't let this crap effect you at all. Most of these people, you will ever meet in real life and most likely, don't want to. Many people come to the internet to release their frustrations and release their poison on any victim they can find. Just use a mirror as I do to reflect it back on them or just ignore it.

BTW, you did an outstanding job at bringing attention to this problem that has existed for sometime now. This is one of the reasons I STOPPED posting Build Logs.

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:14 pm

Oh and try to use some music in one of your posted videos on youtube that you do not have rights too and see what happens.

Hamburger · Post by **Hamburger** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:25 am

copterrichie wrote:Oh and try to use some music in one of your posted videos on youtube that you do not have rights too and see what happens.

thanks for your support. This comment I do not understand? What are you trying to point out, please?

kos · Post by **kos** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:50 am

something like : copyright claims are not born equal ..

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:09 am

Hamburger wrote:
copterrichie wrote:Oh and try to use some music in one of your posted videos on youtube that you do not have rights too and see what happens.

thanks for your support. This comment I do not understand? What are you trying to point out, please?

Because if you using any Music, Pictures or video clips that one does not have legal rights to use, they will reject the video. However, people can use all of the source code they want yadda yadda yadda.

copterrichie · Post by **copterrichie** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:10 am

kos wrote:something like : copyright claims are not born equal ..

Exactly!

Thanks for the clarity.

timecop · Post by **timecop** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:53 pm

Those foreign devils are continuing to steal multiwii code

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost ... tcount=287
GPS stuff is a direct rip from multiwii, 100% unchanged

Hamburger · Post by **Hamburger** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:53 pm

dongs wrote:Those foreign devils are continuing to steal multiwii code

no surprise on that front. Why did you invest any time in veryfying at all? Would you expect them to come up with something of their own origin?

I would like to get info if/when the first retailer/reseller of Rabbit shows up with location falling under western jurisdiction. Not too likely to happen though.

timecop · Post by **timecop** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:03 pm

Well, who knows, I mean if they suddenly had good/working GPS code, I could steal it back from them... but oh noez!

Xor · Post by **Xor** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:05 pm

Ok, found a forum where so called "devs" provides support to the rabbit:

http://bbs.5imx.com/bbs/forumdisplay.php?fid=453&page=6

I do not understand a thing (in chinese), but you can try google translate
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbbs.5imx.com%2Fbbs%2Fforumdisplay.php%3Ffid%3D453%26page%3D6

timecop · Post by **timecop** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:11 pm

I like the first autotranslated topic:
Rabbit With GPS CF is useless

Williwaw · Post by **Williwaw** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:45 pm

Xor wrote:Ok, found a forum where so called "devs" provides support to the rabbit:

http://bbs.5imx.com/bbs/forumdisplay.php?fid=453&page=6

I do not understand a thing (in chinese), but you can try google translate
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbbs.5imx.com%2Fbbs%2Fforumdisplay.php%3Ffid%3D453%26page%3D6

I thought it would be good to try and bring this to the attention of their user base but it will not let me sign up.
[quote]Your request origin is not correct, or verify that the string does not match, could not be submitted.If you install personal firewall software (such as Norton Internet Security) some kind of origin information is shielded by default, set and try not to prohibit the origin information.[\quote]

Probably need to change my proxy to a CN IP, but I figure I'll leave this to a DEV here.
I don't think it would be that bad of an idea to try and win the "hearts and minds" of the CN user base (on their forum) of Rabbit to help influence the Rabbit 'devs'.

timecop · Post by **timecop** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:50 am

There was a thread about this on 5imx already.
As you can imagine, most of them don't give a fuck.

dodecopter · Post by **dodecopter** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:27 pm

is it allowed to sell computers with "stolen" code on ebay? doesnt ebay care about this?

kos · Post by **kos** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:35 pm

http://fsffrance.org/news/assignation-free.pdf

Xor · Post by **Xor** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:34 am

Tried to ping ebay seller again to get the source code, the reply was (as expected) "we don't have the source code,the Rabbit company did not supply it."

Hamburger · Post by **Hamburger** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:01 pm

any new retailers / sellers popped up lately? Preferrably in a country under western style legislation?

Hamburger · Post by **Hamburger** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:04 pm

the HoTT telemetry implementation fork discussed here viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1284&p=11967#p11967 does erroneously grant more rights to MultiWii code than GPL allows. I left a note for the author Oli in his thread.

Hamburger · Post by **Hamburger** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:30 pm

Update: Oli will correct licence for his hott fork.